Ep 15: How understanding your personality and adapting your behaviours can help you win an awards pitch - with IAN WASHINGTON-SMITH, Behavioural Expert & Director at Rego.

Join Donna in conversation with Ian Washington-Smith, the Director of Rego, an organisation that works with people to solve problems and support individuals and teams to achieve their goals and reach their potential. 

With the company strapline “Changing Realities” Ian had his own reality changed when he retired from the police after 30 years as a Detective Inspector. In his last post, he managed the Counter Corruption Unit working across the Thames Valley Police force area, leading a team that worked covertly to investigate police corruption allegations - a little like you see in the BBC series “Line of Duty”.

After encountering his own experiences with stress, Ian retrained as an REBT (Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy) therapist, with much of this work based on Stoic Philosophy which has brought him to where he is today, helping people achieve their potential through a better understanding of themselves.

Donna O'Toole is CEO of August, she has had the pleasure of supporting entrepreneurs, business leaders and teams to win the most prestigious awards in the world. Seeing first-hand how receiving awards and recognition has motivated teams, solved problems, supercharged brands and raised their profiles, helping businesses to grow and do even more good things for their employees, their industry and their community.

Transcript

Donna O'Toole: 0:09

Hi, I'm Donna rattle and you're listening to my exclusive winning awards podcast. Over the years, I've had the pleasure of supporting entrepreneurs, business leaders and teams to win the most prestigious awards in the world. I've seen firsthand how receiving awards and recognition has motivated teams, solve problems, supercharge brands, and raise profiles, helping businesses to grow and do even more good things for their employees, their industry and their community. In this podcast, I'll be sharing valuable awards, insights, tips and inspirational stories to make sure that you get the recognition that you deserve, so that you can go on and achieve your dreams. So what are you waiting for? It's time to start winning. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the winning awards podcast. Today I have with me in Washington Smith, who is the director of riego, an organisation that works with people to solve problems and support individuals and teams to achieve their goals and reach their potential. With the company strapline changing realities. In his had his own reality changed when he retired up from the police force after 30 years as a Detective Inspector. In his last post, he managed the counter corruption unit, working across the Thames Valley police force area, leading a team that worked covertly to investigate police corruption allegations, a little bit like you see in the BBC series live duty sounds very exciting to me. after encountering his own experiences with stress in retrained as an RA bt that's rational emotive behaviour therapy therapist with much of his work based on stoic philosophy, which has brought him to where he is today, helping people to achieve their potential through a better understanding of themselves. I was really delighted to connect with Ian through the riego group whose work includes organising awards events like the Lloyds Bank, National Business Awards, both live and now virtually too. And we found a common ground in Ian's work supporting individuals and teams to aim high and build their confidence and with my work, helping people to achieve recognition for their work and achievements that went together brilliantly. So I wanted to know a bit more about what makes people tick, and how our individual behaviours can have an impact on our lives and our careers, and can even be the difference between winning and awards pitch, or walking away without the trophy, and it's helped me. So welcome in. And thank you for joining me today.

Unknown: 2:36

Really good to meet everybody today.

Donna O'Toole: 2:38

Lovely, thank you. So you've got a really interesting background. And so tell us a little bit about your life growing up and what it was like joining the police service in 1985.

Unknown: 2:48

So I'm not sure you can tell. But I'm originally from Birmingham, and I now live in Plymouth, and sometimes London, and had a really cotton wool upbringing in there. And after going to university I went, I was unsure about what career to take. I was sort of thinking of myself more as progressing of career in football, though probably wasn't good enough for that. And I remember just towards the end of my university career, somebody invited me on a on a familiarisation programme with the police. I think if I'd stayed in Birmingham, it was kind of not the done thing for for black people to join in that in that time. So if I'd stayed in Burma hadn't gone away, I probably would have had wouldn't have had the confidence to, to to join them, because I'd be too worried about what people said. But because I went away and studied for a while and sort of found my own feet. I did, I did join. And it was a it was a great career, I couldn't have learned as much that's relevant to my second career if I hadn't been in that environment. And it was a real eye opener for a lot of reasons.

Donna O'Toole: 4:04

Yeah, I'm sure. So and I can imagine that working in the police force. And then investigating corruption would mean that you do need to have a good understanding of people's behaviours. And it's really great that you've been able to build on that intro trust in the rigo approach that you now run. So can you tell us a bit about how this helps? How do we go approach helps people to understand themselves and what this can mean for their lives?

Unknown: 4:30

Well, it's a great question, and there's so much that can come out of it for people that are listening. But first of all, most people don't really understand a lot about their minds. And you can tell that because when they talk about mental health, you get a lot of people talking about let's talk about mental health. And talking about helps, but it doesn't actually give you the solution. There are solutions available for people, when they understand more about their minds. Unfortunately, most people don't learn the In school, and what I found out and it's not, you know, it's not what I necessarily invented. But what there's this, there's there's been this knowledge around for many, many 1000s of years, that can allow us to have some answers. And that's where the stoic philosophy element comes into it because that says that it's not the situation, it's your beliefs about the situation that determine your emotion. Because most of us are focused on saying, This made me nervous, this made me angry, all your focus is on the situation, and not on what's happening internally in order to give you that feeling. But the really important point is that not everybody has the same feeling in a situation. So they clearly must be another determinant of how you respond. So I didn't go come across this on purpose. You might say it's fake, but I, I met somebody through somebody else. And that then led me to, to understand this knowledge. And when I trained, I did every course they offered, and then I went to work in my, my, my network, which is the police service, and I was completely surprised at the results. And the reason why we get those results is because it empowers people to the point where they don't need you anymore, because they, they understand what we now call in the rigo approach, the mechanics of the mind, they understand how you can have a bad day, or how you can have a not so good day, not every day has to be terrible, and awful, etc, etc. So so that's the method we use. And I think what happened was there and is that as, as people were beginning to learn that it was they were creating their own reality, they could then see that you could also have a reality about yourself, which limited your progress. And, and once they realised that they were limiting themselves, what was then happening is they're coming in with anxiety, and then leaving and going and getting promoted, because they realised that they were stopping themselves doing that. So this whole empowerment piece from understanding the mind is a key part. Then a little bit further along, you know, you start to talk to other people. And I met my colleague, George George stoian, who does many things, one of the things he does is he he does this thing called what we call now in the rigo approach, behavioural wiring. And that gives an even deeper insight into how you respond to situations and how different people respond because of their own behaviour or comfort zones. So the combination of the two of the of these approaches and other information has led us to draw to derive this this this regal approach, which, which really does solve problems for people and give her a deeper understanding, but non psychological understanding of people that is practical and easier to learn.

Donna O'Toole: 8:16

Excellent. So I mean, I I obviously noticed people's behaviours and one area that I noticed that a lot is when we're helping individuals or teams in businesses to help prepare for an awards presentation. So that's when they're going face to face with the judges. And they're going to put a pitch forward. And obviously, that brings about a lot of nerves and a lot of worries. And, you know, we coach them through that process, and we practice with them to the rehearse, and we practice judges questions and all sorts. But do you think that there are certain certain personality types that would just naturally have more chance of winning over the judges than others? And also, what could you do to recommend you know how to ease those nerves for present awards presentations for people?

Unknown: 9:05

So yeah, absolutely. I think first of all, let's let's talk about it technically, it's a situation some people see differently. So let's look at who will see differently. Well, if we look at in our model, if we look at the two groups, mainly, you've got people are focused on task, you've got people focused on people, right? So what tends to happen is the people people, they tend to worry about more about what other people think. So they're more likely to be worried about what will the judges think of me What will people watching listen of me and because they're then thinking about these other things, they're moving into anxiety by anxiety I mean that they see the situation as a threat is a threat to them. So all the all when you see something as a threat, even though it's perceived and not real, your body risks funds to what you're telling it. And that's why they then get an impaired performance. So when they start having problems articulating themselves in this in this environment,, when ordinarily, they don't have a problem. That's exactly why because a different part of the brain takes over and actually limits you speaking, because that part of the brain is not designed for conversation. It's designed for helping you run away. So, So Yeah, so you get the people, people, but then you get other people who focused on task. Sometimes they'll have similar difficulties, but usually for other reasons. So I was working with somebody recently, who was very task, you know, high up in a company, actually the CEO of the company,, and, and in, in certain environments, their problem was that they, they were worrying about the competition. And thinking that if somebody is more experienced,, they'd be better than them. So they then go in, and they then move into anxiety, but worrying about the competition, rather than what people think of them. Right. Yeah, definitely, you get all sorts of challenges in there. But The problem is that all of it impairs your performance. So that the, the opportunity is to is when you realise that actually you've got you're going in there when you have anxiety with an absolutist view, right. And that absolutist view is I must get to give the perfect, perfect performance, people absolutely must think that I've done the right thing, or I've got, you know, given a great performance, or people must like me, or approve of me, it's these absolute these views that generate the problem, when you go in there and just think, Okay, I accept that I'm going to give a performance, I accept, it may not be the best, but I'm going to go in and have the conversation I need to have that makes sense. Yeah, go in, and you're not there limiting yourself with all these sorts of limited absolute is beliefs. And that's really where, where the opportunity lies. I'm not saying you can do it in a day. Yeah, if you practice it, that's where you get to. And you begin to see that if I give you another example, if we're walking down the road, I'm afraid of dogs, and you're not. Okay. So you'll see the dog that's off the lead. And then you look at me, and you notice I'm now standing on the wall and telling you to get the dog away from me. Now The reason I'm telling you to get the dog away from me, even though you know, it won't hurt you, is because I see the dog in a different way to you. Does that make sense? Yeah, but we don't normally see. So almost like back to front thinking, yeah, in order for people to achieve the solution, but the more you practice it, the better you get.

Donna O'Toole: 12:49

Fantastic. That really makes sense. Because when we're working with people on their awards, presentations, you know, some of the responses, it's that fight or flight and some you know, some people do come at it with real fighting spirit, and they say, right, give it to me, let's go for it, I'm going to really show them and they're super confident. And I suppose you know, you would be able to assess the type of, you know, personality type they are. And then others come to me and they say, Oh my goodness, done, I can't believe I'm gonna have to in front of these judges, what are they gonna? Think? What am I gonna do? How am I gonna remember what I'm going to say? And you know, and and we are pleased to say we make a successful round. But obviously, there's more work with some than there is with others. But equally, it's not just always the anxious people who, you know, need more coaching for their awards. presentations, it's actually sometimes you've got to take some people who are coming in with the fighting spirit down or not. And say, Okay, well, you know, I know you really want to go for this, but actually, let's focus on what they're looking for. And, and really stay, you know, centred on that and be engaging and approachable. And, you know, and frankly,

Unknown: 13:56

you're going to, you're going to get a broad range of behaviour. But I think that, you know, where people are coming in with some things like imposter syndrome or confidence issues. And you'll see, you know, you go on the internet, sometimes you think, well, this is our solution for this, and people actually think there isn't, but there is, and we're not born to be fixed. We're born to adapt, although we don't often think like that. And Our brains are like new, we call them neural pathways. And All it takes is practice and a little bit of help, and you can overcome so much of the stuff that bothers people. Yeah, as long as, as long as you're open to doing it. Yeah, absolutely.

Donna O'Toole: 14:35

So also, I found in my time in awards, that some people are more hungry for the award when and, and so during the process, they're, you know, they really, they're really coming at it really positively and enthusiastically and then other people have been, you know, they need to get involved in the awards process, but they're less interested and they're not so competitive. But I find that when the results come And then you know, the winds are happening, or even just being shortlisted that the recognition boost is really motivational for them. And then the morale goes up for everybody, no matter what sort of type of person they are. So from your perspective, what do you think recognition means to different these different types of people?? And should we be thinking about who we pick in the team to manage these awards? processes?? Or do you think it doesn't really matter? But What's your opinion on that?

Unknown: 15:31

I think the awards probably we'll probably talk about this in another question. But I think it's a really important prognosis for a company for a number of reasons. But I mean, I have to thank I didn't learn this when I was training, this was all stuff that I've learned from my colleague, George, and it's all again about this behavioural wiring. And, and I think sometimes there's other disciplines that help you understand it, but you sometimes you think, because you understand something, that's all there is to be understood. But there's layers of this learning and the more you learn, the more you will see. And you'll see that there are patterns in human behaviour that people don't even even get consciously, perhaps, but subconsciously, when you provoke them a little bit, they will. Know. So What I've learned is we call them greens, the people people, we call them yellows, the, the expressives, we call them reds, the task focus drivers who tend to lead one to lead etc. And we call the blues the analyticals. Right. And when you think about how different they are, you begin to see that there's a, there's a, there's a natural collaboration in nature, right. And when you when you understand, the more that you'll see that it said that if they're all there,, then we're going to get something that really works. Well. Sometimes when we lack one element of them,, then things won't develop as well. Now naturally, it's like having, you know, different tools in the toolbox. In reality, although we call them behavioural comfort, zones, they have access to all they they actually have a comfort zone. And that comfort zone will dictate certain things. So So what we see if I talk with the greens first because I'm agree, which is probably why I ended up working with people. And I liked Pete working with people. But my problems when I talked about stress, you might think, well, they were all to do with em being a policeman and dealing with all these serious incidents, etc, etc. Actually, I worked with, you know, and I worked with many, many senior police officers now, you know, during the coaching stuff that we do, now. And I get all these referral forms that will often say, that, because they've been to this incident, that incident, they're having a particular problem. The reality is that usually it's about people. It's not about things they've dealt with. And usually, when they're green, it will be about people, right? So there's a real opportunity there with pre empting some problems by selecting certain groups and identifying where they have that type of problem. Right. So The Greens are usually about approval, the approval of others, right. That's their motivating factor. That's The important part from this award ceremony.

Donna O'Toole: 18:26

Right? Yeah.

Unknown: 18:27

Not necessarily recognition. Recognition is where the yellows come in. Yeah, rescues, right. So, you know, so like, in our company, we tend to have a lot of expressives. And the things they love, they do get a lot of them are those letters of recognition. And they'll be walking around and telling everybody else about the lack of little recognition. I'll be that. Oh, that's great. That's great. But that's not really my thing. Does that makes sense? Yeah. Where The the blues, the analyticals. It's more about status. And with, you know, with with the reds, there's this competitive element, which is really about winning, you know, they want to get a result. And that's why it means something, they're the ones that have that trophy and be showing it around it. cetera. So You see, you've got different motivational pieces. And you'll get some organisations that are a little bit more red, you'll get some a little bit more yellow. Does that make sense? So understanding what type of culture you have, like for instance, you might have accountants on one hand, or you might have marketing people, you walk into those offices is a very different vibe. Yeah. And there's a different vibe, because of the types of people that you get in there. Does that make sense? Yeah. When I talk to people about it, they get it straight away. You'll see Yeah. So in terms of, of when you're looking for how you motivate, I mean, I would say well, you need to understand a little bit about who your audience is. is in that in that team? And, and that, you know, particular ones will get particular things from the award. Yeah. But how you talk to them about it is the key because there's an opportunity to motivate all. And that's the bit, isn't it? It's not that they're all have the same motivation. But The award is a motivation for the progress of the company.

Donna O'Toole: 20:23

That's fantastic. And It's making me want to profile all the teams now going into presentations, and the judges to imagine if we could profile the judges, that would be great.

Unknown: 20:34

That's exactly how you get the perfect collaboration. Yeah, it's all about understanding others, you know, well, understanding yourself as well, but also understanding others.

Donna O'Toole: 20:43

Yeah, of course. So.. So thinking then, about behaviours, there's obviously an obviously, you know, we've gone through such a difficult time over the last year, and so many people have really suffered, and there's been a big move forward in the interest in employee engagement, I would say, and in the employee experience, and certainly within awards and awards that I've been judging, over the last year, there's been some incredible and really powerful initiatives that have come out through the pandemic. And so I feel like there's been a bit of a shift in the awards of what they're looking for now from companies who are really recognising their people and looking after them, giving them a great experience. So how well what are you seeing how well do you think companies are understanding their people? Now?

Unknown: 21:31

Look, I think that the whole interest in in mental health, the whole interest in people welfare, is is genuine. We talk about presenteeism and absenteeism, when we're when we're pitching, because we know that we can do something positive in making change around that, by helping people understand themselves. So I think companies are beginning to do that. But to really make an impact on that problem, you've got to move outside of the conscious mind into the subconscious, because it's a subconscious, that the problems are caused that. And that's really where when you learn a kind of formula to understand how it works, you then are able to moderate the behaviour, the thinking what people are saying almost on the basis of them understanding, as we call it, the mechanics of the mind. So I think that a lot of companies at the level where they're talking about it, what I would say is that, you know, in the riego approach, we're more about learning how these problems are caused, rather than what the symptoms are. And, and even, you know, in some in some mental health, disciplines, they're still focused on the symptoms, actually, rather than where, where the causes are, that has given us other opportunities on it, to be honest, which, which are around actually diagnosing problems more accurately, so that you, you can actually understand what causes the problem, rather than just talking about the symptoms of it. Yeah,, if that makes sense. So that's where I would, that's where I would say, the real opportunity lies. And then the other opportunity, I would say is that we do this proactively, you know, if I knew what I knew now, I would not have had the stress problems I had at work, you know, there's a real opportunity to take this proactively with the right information. So people reach a level of information that allows them not to suffer as much.

Donna O'Toole: 23:38

Yeah, of course, no, it makes absolute sense. And you've developed an adversity management. programme. So can you tell us a bit more about what the what you'd recommend is proactive opportunities to support our mental health, and how we can use those sort of count for our colleagues and our friends and our families at the moment.

Unknown: 23:57

So the adversity management programme was actually for people this is a police programme, actually, to people who were, who were going through the discipline. process. And and I think that you have to realise and I, when people are being disciplined in the place, you know, you they're often seen in a certain way, but you have to realise that their guilt that they're not necessarily doing anything. Wrong, it just been investigated for doing something wrong, but it's the start at a very difficult time for them. And and quite often they were having to be supported by Occupational Health, only because they weren't. They weren't negotiating this period of adversity, very well. Well, the reality is that everybody, nickel has to negotiate periods of adversity, and some negotiate them better than others and the ones that do realise that the mind is very interested in Thinking negatively in certain situations, but when you realise after the event that things haven't been as bad as you would have, imagined, you don't look back and give your mind a hard time for lying to you about how bad it would be. And, and so my, you know, our objectives were to, to help people access these thinking alternatives at an earlier place. So they realise that the mind will always focus on the worst once you enter a difficult time, but it doesn't mean that is what is gonna. happen. The second thing is that when you're when you start to focus on the worst, you actually don't begin to look at things in a realistic way. And you also forget that you've got a goal. And The goal is not necessarily to spend your whole life in whatever you're doing. So if if if it meant that, for instance, you had to move departments or have to move into another role, or move or leave the service. Altogether, it doesn't mean that your whole life revolves around one thing does that whereas Yeah, in a crisis, situation, you tend to cling on to it to think that's the only thing you can do. You know, many people change jobs, particularly in these in these difficult times now, and you're it's usually your mindset, that's gonna help you get the next job. If you're, if you're suffering with the loss of the last job, you're less likely to get the new one. So Yeah, that's what advice to adversity management is all about accessing, thinking alternatives in difficult situations, and understanding that, you know, the mind doesn't always tell us the truth.

Donna O'Toole: 26:41

I think that's a really, really good point, actually, for right now, this, you know, for so many people, there are so many difficult things happening, but we still have goals, like you say, we still have goals that are outside of you know, what you're doing is your day to day job, and they can still be achieved and achievable. Once we've got, you know, through this, or with a change of path, can't they so it's important to keep focused on those goals, I think and stay positive.

Unknown: 27:08

Absolutely. And you find that some people are actually a little bit out of balance, because they, their goals are all invested in work, and not in life, you know, and, you know, there's all this work to live sort of argument or live to work. And I think once you get it, you naturally come into the question of balance. And quite often for them, they having this adversity and having a little bit of another view on it, is the opportunity for them to stand back and look and assess where they are in terms of those those sorts of those other important objectives.

Donna O'Toole: 27:43

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, keeping positive goals in mind as well, it's interesting, because last year, when the pandemic started, we, you know, in being in the awards, industry, and and you will understand this thought, wow, does that mean, no one's gonna want to do any awards this year, you know, what's gonna happen, and actually, you know, coming through and out the other side of it, what we found was, yes, it became an opportunity to celebrate the companies and the individuals who were going above and beyond to be able to support others and help their community and because employees and all those great things, and it will, it gave those employees and those individuals, something to look forward to, you know, something really positive to focus on. And a goal that was later and a lot of the awards programmes that I, that I partner with and speak to said, reported back to us that they have more entries than they'd ever had before last year. So it was really interesting how that actually worked in a way that perhaps people wouldn't have expected,

Unknown: 28:46

completely agree with you. It's been a real time of transition, you know, and for us, it's been jump on to that and gather the expertise in the virtual virtual world and, and gather the tech and adapt to the new services that people are going to need. Yeah, and I always say that it's not necessarily that the money is run away. You know, it seems it's actually that people have got to learn how they tap into it. Yeah. So that's something that we've been adapting to do as quickly as we could. Yeah. And then you're

Donna O'Toole: 29:17

you're involved in running awards events, and you have been for many years. And I know that you've supported with, you know, pivoting some of those awards to virtual events this year. So What's been the change for you and how have they had to you and they had to change the way that they look after nominees to keep cater for that virtual environment. And What do you think is going to be the future for awards this year and beyond?

Unknown: 29:43

Well, the thing in the I think the thing in the company and the success for them before perhaps we started doing that, the coaching side was that they you know, Donna and clay were particularly good at choosing people that made that connection with people Yeah, I think there's a lot of yellow in there, but it's not exclusive together. I think it is. And, and, and that's what people want in an event, they that's what brings it to life, that energy and that that connection and that authenticity. So, moving into the virtual world, I would say that because quite often, when you're making your appearance in that,, that virtual arena, you're on your own, you know, the client, so to speak is on your own, there's a real need for that, that empathy, that understanding, perhaps an enhanced need for it. So that so that you can, you can make them as comfortable as possible. So that you can get, you know, in the award ceremony, the best performance you can get that makes, you don't really have anybody support you in that. So they've, they've thought that through so that we're doing the right things in the green room, the room before they go in, etc. Yeah, so that the client is comfortable, they understand what's required, that we we've got enough tech knowledge so that if they have a problem, we can support them with that problem and do so very calmly, you know, all those things that are gonna gonna make them go in there and just be relaxed and get get the best performance bit like you did for me before we

Donna O'Toole: 31:29

are your natural? So What do you think then just to finish up, on, you know, we're still at the start of 2021? Well, we're in February now. And This is now than in the next month, you know, there's going to be lots of awards. Launching, and you know, and then also be lots of awards organisers making decisions this year. And obviously, we're still, no one quite knows. What, what when live events are going to be back for the events. Industry. So What do you think this year looks like for the events industry in the in the awards, arena, and perhaps beyond this, year,

Unknown: 32:03

I think that people have now seen the benefit of virtual awards, we've, you know, we've made them work. We've been successful at helping people with, you know, the mind coaching and, and the pre event preparation, etc. So I don't think they're going to go away. And they're an opportunity to perhaps even reach a larger field in some respects. But I think naturally, also that people will want to come together and celebrate in the way they always have. So I see, you know, once we get to the better side of what's going on now that there is an opportunity for both now, I don't think the virtual world is going to go away. No, I agree with you, though. And I don't think virtual awards will go away. Now. But I think now with the opportunities to cater for both.

Donna O'Toole: 32:50

Yeah, absolutely. And what's been absolutely brilliant. And something I've been talking about is the opportunities that thing given the entrance that they might not have had before. So now they're entering international awards, for example, because they know that the ceremony is going to be online, or the presentations, they can participate. Lee might not have been able to do that before. And, and also it helps with budgets, you know, because they're not having to travel so much. And Yeah, you know, hotels for the night, and big fancy dinners and all of that kind of thing. So For me, it's made the whole foods industry much more accessible. And, and real and brought it to businesses and organisations and entrepreneurs who might not have thought that they could get involved. Before. So I think it's been, you know, I'm really proud actually, of the way that there was industry has dealt with it and has turned things on their head to keep it positive for everybody.

Unknown: 33:41

Absolutely. I mean, it's one industry that has made that adaptation, and you can see that you're benefiting from it. And we we've now developed a you know, like we work with the women's exhibitions, network. It's a it's a, it's a massive opportunity to kind of work at a different level very, very easily. Yeah, all facilitate for you. No,

Donna O'Toole: 34:03

absolutely, I was Thank you so much. It's been really fascinating. And really interesting how these behaviours connect into everything in everyday life. And I hope that our listeners have been able to take something away from this today that they can go and action and think about in their own lives. And obviously, if anyone's got any interest in finding out more about the Rigo approach them do contact me and we'll put some links in here for you. And and looking forward to all those amazing virtual award ceremonies that your organisation will be involved in this year as well. Yeah, just

Unknown: 34:37

say that we love to share the knowledge. It's a real benefit to to everyone. And please learn more about the mind, particularly if you're suffering with any of the things that I've talked to you about today.

Donna O'Toole: 34:48

Brilliant. Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure speaking to you today.

Unknown: 34:52

Okay.

Donna O'Toole: 34:55

Thank you for listening to this episode of my winning awards podcast. If you enjoyed it or found helpful, please share it on Twitter and LinkedIn. And If you have any questions please head over to crafted by auguste.com, where you can find out more about winning awards and contact me. On the website. You can also take our free awards test, which will identify your award strengths and tell you how likely you are to win. I really hope you've been able to take away some ideas today so that you can go ahead and win awards have an even bigger impact on the world and achieve your dreams.